Neil Chatwood On How Omnivex Makes Actionable Data The Key To Its Digital Signage Work

Using data is pretty much integral to just about any ambitious and involved digital signage network being spun up these days, but for a lot of vendors and their customers, it’s still a relatively new concept and approach.

That’s definitely not the case for the Toronto-area CMS software firm Omnivex, which has been around for more than 30 years and has always made data-driven communications central to what it does. More than 20 years ago, the core Omnivex solution included a module called DataPipe. I know, because I was using the thing way back then for a digital ad network I launched … probably 10 years too early, but that’s a story for another time.

While a lot of its competitors have developed and marketed platforms that are pretty and loaded with bling, Omnivex has resolutely stuck to its technology guns with software that’s quite involved and very powerful. The net result is Omnivex gets involved in a lot of the more complicated jobs in which real-time data, and the context it provides, shapes what shows up on screens. Airports, for example, are a very active vertical.

I had a long, detailed chat with Neil Chatwood, a transplanted Brit who runs the global transport file for Omnivex. We could have gone on for hours, as he has a lot of insights about data, security, and programming content for large, very involved environments.

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TRANSCRIPT

Neil, thank you for joining me. For those people who don’t know Omnivex, can you just give a quick rundown on the company? 

Neil Chatwood: Yeah, for sure. So, Omnivex was established back in the dark ages of digital signage, 1991. It’s a privately owned organization, just outside of Toronto, Ontario and Canada.

Oh, come on. It’s in Toronto. Like, Toronto goes on forever. 

Neil Chatwood: Yeah, that’s right. Pretty much right on the border. Well, it’s on the subway line now. They’ve expanded the subway, so that finally happened. 

Yeah, it’s not like you see countryside on the other side of the parking lot though.

Neil Chatwood: Not anymore. In the last 10 years, there’s been a Vaughan skyline, as depressing as that may be. But yeah, I’ve been around a long time in a private family owned organization and it’s really grown off the back of our focus on leveraging real time data, integrating with basically any system we could possibly think of.

And that pedigree has kept us in the business for over 30 years now. 

Yeah, I have a history in a network I started more than 20 years ago using Omnivex. So I was familiar with Omnivex products and Datapipe and everything. So we were talking before we turned on the recording. I found it amusing that a lot of the software side of the industry has awakened to the idea of data integration and data handling for the last four or five years when it’s something you were doing like 25 years ago. 

Neil Chatwood: Yeah. Back in around 2009-2010 when a lot of the industry was yelling Content is King. Right.

Don’t say that. 

Neil Chatwood: I know. You see. I do. Yeah, it’s a classic. And our ownership at the time, you know, they like to have fun and they took that and changed it into Context as King and we’ve really kind of run with that since inception.

But I joined the organization in 2010 and data and complexity is where we’ve always really hung our hat. We’re a software vendor but the majority of our revenue comes from licensed sales. But we really do find ourselves in the trenches with our partners and our clients getting in there and providing pseudo consultancy on what data do you have in house? 

Like, how has it been stored? What methods can we use? And figuring out the solution in parallel with all of the stakeholders, even though at the face of it we’re just slinging CMS licenses.

So that’s our heritage and when I’m when I start talking to someone who’s interested in looking at the market or you get a lead or you’re talking to someone at a trade show, my advice is always to take a look at a bunch of companies. Take a bunch of companies, look at all these CMSs.

In all the old guard, there’s a good handful of companies that I might say some names, Navori, for example, StrataCash, Scala, right. They’re all pretty old guard, when we talk about the digital signage industry. 

I encourage people to take a look at all the products that are on the market and once you start to get those demos and you start to go through the sales process, you can really see the DNA of where that company’s come from, right? Like, are they focused on a really pleasant UX/UI experience? Are they focused on performing high end post processing within the platform itself and are good at asset generation as opposed to creating it in a third party piece of kit and bringing it in.

Our DNA has always been on the data side our position is that if you’re going to make good images and assets that you’re going to bring into the CMS, trying to ask a creative to use a tool, that’s not something they’re already comfortable with, you know you’re kind of paddling upstream on that.

So we’ve always taken the position of let people use the software that they’re already comfortable with. Let’s not introduce a knowledge gap, bring it in. And that leads us to, well, if we’re not going to focus on the asset side, let’s focus on the data side. So yeah, that’s where we’ve come from.

And it’s where goals are set for in the future as well. 

Well, when you have literally hundreds of software options out there these days and I would suspect most of them in some way say, yes, we do data handling, we have data integration, we have APIs or whatever it may be. How does an end user discern what’s real versus just you the bare essentials?

Neil Chatwood: That’s a good question. When the user is going through that sales process and they’re doing their comparisons, they have to show you it works right? Like, we’re in an industry that is extremely visual, very creative. And you and I have been to a lot of trade shows and a lot of the DSEs in our time and if you’re walking around there on setup day, I’ve seen plenty of CMS vendors running their showreel on windows media player, right. Before the crowds arrive and it’s like, well if your stuff’s that good, why are you using that? Like, why are you doing it that way? So if I was a buyer or if I was a third party consultant trying to guide someone through this, I’d be like the first couple of calls you’re going to have with them. You’re going to get the dog and pony show, right. They’re going to show you all the sexy stuff, right?

Oh yeah, all works great. Do you want to bring this plug in? Get your IT team involved, right? The people who know where your data lives and what format it’s in, how accessible it is. And get them to sit down with the sales engineers of these CMS companies and get them to POC and get your data into their product, right?

Most CMSs at this point, they’re cloud hosting their software as a service, right? If they’re sitting there and they’re saying this is really easy. We can just go bing bong bop and it comes in, alright then show me. Just don’t accept it at face value if you really want to dig into this stuff. I don’t know any software vendor out there that isn’t going to entertain the idea of a proof of concept or at least won’t say, yeah, sure like any salesperson just wants to get the sale. Right. 

So, if you’ve got this accessible data, right. Let’s say it’s up on Azure, right. It’s some kind of blob storage or if it’s accessible through an API. Can you just give me the keys? Like, let me in and I’ll show you it in real time and then we’ll bring it in.

Once they can prove that to you, then it’s not about data accessibility anymore. It’s then you need to start looking into the assurances that they’re going to be ethical and they’re going to have the same levels of governance and control over that data that is being ingested into their system. That’s where a lot of our focus is now.

And you’ve really kind of touched on that with APIs. Back in the nineties, when we were asked to integrate with all these different data sources. We were lucky if there was documentation, it was probably RS232, serial cables..

David:That’s a term I haven’t heard in a long time.

Neil Chatwood: Yeah. Using Telnet to get in. So like, a lot of the solution building was just kind of banging your head against the wall just to even access the data and make it legible to processing that data into information and then getting that information down onto the screen.

That is less of a concern now because we’re at the point where any data provider, they’ve probably got a fully or semi documented API or they’ve got an SDK, a software development kit where for the most part, if we’re looking to POC a data integration. It probably takes us two to four hours, right?

But based on how well documented it is, if the data structure is easy to work with and more often than not, the biggest part that takes the most time is liaising with the third party organization to let us in, right? 

Because the client will say, Oh yeah.we use such and such for this and we’re using this product for our bus timetables, our bus scheduling. Can you guys hit that? So it’s like, well, there’s a good chance we’ve already hit it because we’ve got clients there already but if we haven’t, then we need to start up an engagement and start talking to that third party organization.

This is the sticking point, right? Because when we start talking to that third party organization that controls that data, that the client is already paying for and leveraging it in house. Depending on the attitude and market position of that third party, they might not want to let us in, right? Like there’s a bunch of organizations out there that sell digital signage as a value add, right?

So, a good example of that would be, the historic vendors for flight information display systems, right? Screens in airports showing arrivals and departures. They sold data and the screen element was like, Oh, by the way, you probably want to show this on a screen, right?

So we’ll just sell you that too. It’s a value add, it’s not a true CMS. It’s a point solution. So when we’re engaging with that third party vendor, I’m often at the head end of this for transportation, I’m like, Hey, we’re working on this project with a mutual client, they want us to get into your data. Is there any way you can provide a sandbox or some test keys so we can just prove this out? Depending on where they’re at, they might not want to let us in. So, the sticking point becomes, then I have to go back to the client and say to the client, I don’t wanna cause any friction here, but we can’t get in without credentials and they’re not giving us any.

So can you please get involved? And those are the conversations where things start getting political. We’re not looking to roll logs under our course friction anywhere. But as far as I’m concerned, your client’s already paying for the data, right? Like if you know if you want to bolt on some charges for hey now you’re using it for digital signage, so we want to charge you an extra 5k a year.

That’s on you. But as far as I’m concerned, an existing client is paying for the data, they want to use it this way. You’re standing in the way of progress here. So, how do we deal with that? I spend so much time dealing with that now.

And a reaction to that about five years ago, I started a scum works team internally. Here in order to proactively build data partnerships so that when a client says a key phrase, Everbridge is a good example, right.

For mass emergency notification. So when a client says Everbridge, we don’t have to go through an uncertain process of reaching out to someone we don’t know, not knowing what their position is. It’s like, we’ve actually already got this working somewhere else.

We can get in here. I can show you an example of it already working or if you can give us access, we can actually prove it with your data. So that, yeah, that’s the business.

I just wanted to ask, I’ve seen companies that talk in terms of what I call functionality apps so that they developed a data handshake with, as you said, Everbridge and then they sort of market that as an application, this is something that we can activate for you.

Is that how you look at it? Or is that kind of a different angle? 

Neil Chatwood: We look at it that way, conceptually, because it’s modularity, right? So, in our product, we’re going to use a mechanism to reach out to that, that could be through some custom scripting or it could be within a product in our stable that has a full UI, in order to access that data.

Like a good example would be, back in the day we had a via link for a via phone system. Right. So, that functionality that some organizations call them widgets, right. Where it’s like, Hey, I just want to slot in this functionality. It’s a couple of clicks.

I put in my username, put in my password and away we go. We operate that in the backend of the system. But at this point, don’t have a full kind of walkthrough where it’s like, Hey, put in your Twitter username and password and away you go. Ours is a little bit more behind the curtain.

We do it that way because we have user personalities. We actually used to use the Simpsons characters too, like, are we dealing with a bar? Are we dealing with Maggie? Like, who are we dealing with here? So those user profiles. It’s like, you should be doing this, right?

And if when we’re looking at building out a data integration, that should really be set and forget it. There really is no reason to go in there on a regular basis and be changing that information or that query or the way we’re massaging the data. So that is an administrative function, right?

That is something that’s behind the scenes. By virtue of that, we’re probably dealing with someone who’s a bit more technical, as a bit of an IT background. So, we have a relatively open system, right? So, whereas when we’re dealing with widgets and a simplified user experience. Click this button, put username in, click this button, put your password and click this, or it comes on screen and now you can kind of like trim that down like that.

That’s what I’ve seen some CMSs do and I think that’s a really light low friction way to get that data in there. We take the approach of like we’re a toolkit. We’re going to assume that our users and our clients and our channel are matching our products and our toolkit to the right levels of user.

So, in the backend, it’s like, here’s a fully open interface that you can do whatever the heck you want with, we can give you some foundational building blocks or modules to enable and empower that user to take it where they want to take it. And that speaks to kind of one of our other positions in the industry where anyone who’s been around kind of knows that Omnivex deals with relatively complex situations because we’ve got that wide open back end that frankly is quite complicated and is a bit scary, right?

To a user that just wants to change a welcome board or change some numbers that are on a restaurant board. So that’s really not our target market, right? Our target market is predominantly enterprise level. They’ve got an in-house IT team or they’ve got a good system integrator involved where we can really get into the weeds on what data you have.

Data has a cost, right? Well organizations are paying to cultivate it, gather it, store it in house. How do we make that data actionable by adding incremental value to it? That’s what we’re looking for. So when we go into a situation, we want to find those people, those stakeholders within the end client and within our channel to get into those deeper discussions on like, I know you want to point an arrow to the right but if we look at what data you’ve got in house, like, let’s say, modern elevator system or a modern escalator system where we’re able to tie into the back end of, Hey, on a Monday, this elevator serves floors 8 through 12. 

But, on weekends or on bank holidays, that elevator is completely shut off. Then, I probably don’t want that arrow to go right, when that elevator is offline. I want it to point straight ahead like a zero degrees rotation, right? Instead of 90 degrees rotation. So if we don’t have an awareness of what data the client has and the client doesn’t have the kind of persona or has the team in house that knows, how their systems work and how their architecture and what data they have, then they might not be the best fit for the kind of challenges we’re looking to tackle.

You’re doing a lot more than changing a price or a soup of the day. 

Neil Chatwood: Yeah, that’s the table stakes, right? I mean honestly, it’s a bad word in our industry, but If you really want it to go down, PowerPoint is able to do that now.

Like you can integrate PowerPoint with Excel. So I know, ever since I’ve been in the industry, you’re always kind of one step away from someone saying, well, why wouldn’t I just use PowerPoint for that? It’s like, well, you’re missing a whole bunch of functionality on top of it. But fundamentally, any CMS worth its salt has two core elements that it needs to play with. It needs to play with data and it needs to bring in assets and basically import those two elements into a layout, right? So by that definition, can PowerPoint do it? Yeah, If we really boil it down but there’s so much value on top of any of these systems.

But getting to that data, exploring the data with the clients is where our ROI comes in and that’s a scary term for a lot of people in this industry too. I honestly think digital signage was really looking for ROI metrics for what feels like 20 years, we were really struggling.

We only really started to get metrics around that in certain fields. Right. So it’s really easy to establish ROI when we’ve got a camera pointed to the audience, we’re looking at expressions and demographics and we’re triggering it and we’re detecting when eyeballs are looking this way.

So ROI on that is really easy. You want me to give you ROI on a wayfinding arrow changing from zero degrees to 90 degrees. That’s going to be a bit more obfuscated but maybe you’re going to see that down the road when you have an independent audit on your facility and your KPIs go shifted five points because your space is a lot more usable now.

So, adding incremental value on that data is really what we’re looking to do and you mentioned menu boards. Menu boards are a real quick win. It’s very transparent, the value of that is very clear but when we start to talk around, passengers flow around an airport or like nudge theory, convincing people to move one way instead of another way because that benefits the operations of the environment.

That is a little bit more tricky to prove ROI on but the humans walking around that space are going to have less friction and less stress while they’re in there. But it really all comes down to weaponizing the data like how do we get the most out of it? How do we turn data into information? 

I could ask a bunch of questions but we probably talked for about three hours. I’m curious about a big job that you were directly involved in and Omnivex was obviously directly involved in at Minneapolis airport which is considered one of the better airports on the planet now.

What’s all involved there? Because there’s a lot of data handling and a lot more going on than just saying that the flight to Seattle is at gate 47. 

Neil Chatwood: Yeah, there is a lot going on at MSP and just to give them a quick shout out, MSP just won the best airport in North America for the third year running. I think that came out a couple of days back and I think they’ve won it like seven times out of the last eight years. So, they’ve got a dedicated team in house that takes care of this stuff.

And I really want to focus on not Omnivex for a second here because the airport deserves to be called out here and so do us. We’ve got a system integrator in there called radiant technology as well out of Columbus, Ohio. And the success there has really started with the vision of their CIO, Eduardo Valencia.

He was directly inspired by sports stadiums, right? And he was personally quite frustrated when he went to a sports stadium. How come the puck goes in the net, the whole stadium changes color and everything goes whiz bang and all of a sudden I’m being advertised, Coca Cola and like why do my screens in my airport suck?

But I’m able to see this when I go to a hockey game. So there’s got it. So he used certain mechanisms to figure out what’s going on in the industry and who’s able to power these full experiences within a facility and thankfully led him to us.

So it really started with that frustration and they took a strategic view at the airport where you’ll hear Eduardo talk about it. The entire airport should just be treated as a single pane of glass and I should be able to control any screen in the airport any way that I want which is a great ambition and a lot of facilities, it’s not just airports. A lot of facilities have a similar ambition and it’s very easy to start with that dream but it’s not going to happen unless you align resources in house. So, MSP have their own decision making panel for digital signage. 

They’ve got a group in house that is responsible for pushing this forward. Nothing good, nothing worthwhile, nothing award winning happens by accident. Like, they’ve taken a real pragmatic approach to this. So, they took a look at their screen estate. They took a look at the use cases.

They took a look at that data and they engaged that system integrator as I mentioned, Radiant to like all right, how do we make good on all this stuff? So, it started from the top which kept teams engaged. It kept them focused and that’s why this is a success. So, a part of that with a foundational piece of technology in there.

But we’re really just a toolkit and it speaks to what I mentioned before about, Hey, our backend might be a little bit scary but you can do whatever the heck you want. That’s the power of a toolkit. So, to go back to what you mentioned about that widget and that usability you can have a really like turbo linear workflow but that really hamstrings capabilities, right?

So when you’re making a product, you’ve got to decide which way you want to go? 

Do I want to go a mile wide? And an inch deep or do I want to go real deep where the scary stuff lives? That’s where we typically are. Where were the, you know, where were the angler fish?

So, that was MSPs approach and that example I mentioned was about what the elevators are doing, what the escalators are doing. What’s happening operationally right now within my airport. So that’s where you start. Like what’s happening right now. Okay. So what’s happening now?

Well, Delta airlines have these check-in counters open. So well, I know my building, I know where the check-in counters are. So the screens that are directly parallel at the curbside to those check-in counters, then let the people pulling up in their cars know, Hey, if you want to go Delta, there’s a big Delta logo and it says open underneath it.

Okay. Particularly airports that are dynamically assigning check in counters for smaller airlines, right? 

Neil Chatwood: For sure. Yeah. Multi-use, environment. So, when we’re, yeah. So there’s always going to be situations where like, Oh yeah, that terminal that’s United terminal, right?

So like, there’s no real variance there, but there’s a whole bunch of smaller airlines and they call it common use. So, yeah. So, you know, we’ve got systems where, you know, let’s say, you know, a smaller airline, you know, logs in like, you know, one example could be Flair. I don’t, it’s not around anymore.

Right. But flair could log in. Okay. Well, they’ve only got two flights a day but they need to take over the ticket counter, they need to take over this gate temporarily. So when they log into the common use platform which is what’s on those screens in front of those agents. When they log into that common use platform by virtue of them logging in, I know who they are, right?

And I know that they work for Flare. So now it makes sense to change the screens that are physically behind that desk. Put up the default content for Flare right now because until this agent makes some decisions around, this screen is going to be the backdrop. This screen is going to be a priority checking or whatever.

Maybe we just want to highlight that this is Flare’s house now and then as they go through their login procedure the screens can be set up any way that they like and what we can do is we can provide dashboards and linear use case tools that makes it easy for that user. That’s where things should be easy where someone’s interacting with digital signage as this is not their job. Like their job is to make sure that they’re processing passengers and getting them to where they need to be. There might be really high turnover. They have no interest or time to be trained on how to use a content management product.

So it’s like, look at that requirement. So what do I need to do? I probably need to present the screens that are behind them, I need to present to them the assets that are available to them and I need them to highlight which flight that they care about right now, that could all be manual.

So, their experience is like, okay, I’m Neil, I’ve logged in, I’m at Flare, bang, screens change. Okay, I’ve got four screens behind me, what do you want on each one of these screens? I want to do image one, image three and image five. Instantly goes up on the screens behind them. All right, I’m done. So that’s where it’s really important to reduce that friction and make it easy.

Not necessarily when we’re setting up the data flow because again, I’m only really going to be setting up that data flow once and then maybe changing it when upstream data sources change. That experience for that airline agent, that is multiple times a day. That’s where we need it to be frictionless, not on the data integration side.

I think it’s interesting with airports and other large footprint facilities like mass transport hubs, stadiums, multi use areas where there’s a stadium, restaurants, residential, commercial on and on and on and airports in particular, I kind of see two threads to how experience works.

I see these gorgeous, very ambitious, very expensive, digital art installations and giant LED walls in newly built airports and they talk about the experience of that and how people are going to feel good about flying and so on. But I see this whole other side and it is much more what you’re talking about. A great experience in an airport is not being panicked, not being lost, not being delayed, not knowing where things are, all that sort of stuff.

To me, that’s a far more important experience, is that kind of how you see it and how some of your clients see it? 

Neil Chatwood: There’s a few hats I could wear on this. The first hat I’ll wear is someone who wants to sell as many licenses as possible. I would rather they have a thousand flat panel screens, right.

But that’s not where the industry’s going. Right. And the big reason for that is, we as an industry, we’ve watched the price of DV LEDs really just go through the floor to the point where there’s real comparisons where it’s like, is this a parity with like a 55 inch flat panel now

For me to get a DVD, like a modular DVLED the same price. So that’s a huge part of it. It’s like the cost has finally come down to a point where it’s reasonable at scale but a lot of it is also just straight up hype, right? Like airports, like anyone else have to sell and compete with other airports.

And this is something that you don’t really think about until you get into it but when you’ve got two airports that are within an hour’s drive of each other. They’re not only competing for passengers, they’re competing for the airlines. 

Yeah. 

Neil Chatwood: Right? So it’s like, If I’m courting with the idea of trying to bring a major airline two that are right next to each other but a good comparison would be like SFO in Oakland, right?

So it’s like, okay well, if I’m in Oakland, how do I convince people not to go over the bridge to SFO? I’d probably need the carriers that carry the most passengers. 

San Jose?

Neil Chatwood: Oh yeah. Good example. Yeah. So a lot of these big sexy installations are coming from, you’ve got to keep up with the Joneses.

But also the price of DVLEDs is reasonable now. So there is that part of the market where it’s all about the LinkedIn posts and the marketing and the wow factor. Yeah, you’re exactly right. So there’ll be like a handful of those within an airport, right? Like a good example would be, Nashville.

We worked on a project with Nashville airport and the content that provided for that was, Gentle Home out of Montreal, where they all are. So, they provided that in an awesome job but that is just one. It’s essentially two screens in probably in a state of, I think about 800 or so, 

Something like that.

Neil Chatwood: So, the big glitzy installations are now basically a requirement for any new build or any renovation for any airport. There’s a couple of projects that I’m aware of that are really interesting. But in terms of decision making, like when I come back down to the fundamental goal of signage in general, not just digital, is to convey information quickly and clearly guide decision making in an environment.

Is this generative AI artwork doing that? No, it’s not going to help me get some flight on time but it might bring down my blood pressure a little bit, that’s what these art installations are, right? 

Like they’re looking for an opportunity for facilities to express themselves, reinforce their branding, market the local area but also sell advertising which is a huge driving factor on some of these big installations too. So, there’s very much like, let’s call them the anchors, right? Like they’re the anchor installations now where there’s millions and millions of dollars being spent and then it’s why I’ve always kind of enjoyed your outlook and your material Dave is like, the boring stuff and that’s what I’m into as well and when I’m walking around the world. That’s the stuff that I’m like, Oh, that is cool as hell. One of the best bits of boring signage at MSP is that good design is invisible, right? So, there is an underground walkway. It’s not a walkway.

It’s more like a hallway but it’s very much a liminal space and you’re going under there. I’m trying to imagine putting my hand up. It’s probably about 10 feet tall. So it’s like, well, there’s not much opportunity for overhead signage cause we can only really add probably about eight inches to this, like overhead.

So, that team works with a display vendor and they put in, I think it’s roughly around it’s about a hundred or so feet wide. I know I’m probably over, I get it. It’s probably about 80 feet wide. But 80 feet wide by about seven inches high. 

So number one, okay, well, we’re still compliant with safety and we’ve got this screen in this hallway now.

What’s great about it is it’s pure wayfinding. All it does is just show people where they need to go. But upstream of this, like this very boring sign is I would estimate two and a half thousand data points. Yeah. In order to get the arrow point in the right way showing, Oh, you’re looking for this airline or you’re looking for a route with accessibility or you’re looking for the TSA. When you add together the time to get to the queue, plus the queue time, which way should you go?

What condition are the elevators in? What condition are the escalators in? Where as an airport, do I want to drive people right now, based on what’s going on in my space? All that intelligence is above that sign, logically. But as a passenger, I look at it and I’m like, Oh yeah, I’m going with Air Canada today.

Bump, I’m done. But the solution is so complex behind it but ultimately, it just means, Hey, this logo appears on screen and this arrow is at 220 degrees and that boils down to that. And I think that use case is beautiful like simplicity in design, it gets rid of the friction. It gets people where they need to be.

That’s what we’re in this business for. 

But the bottom line on that is it looks simple to the end user, to the observer, but there’s a lot going on behind the curtains to make that work seamless. 

Neil Chatwood: Yeah. Again, good design is invisible, right? Like you would have no idea the complexity that goes on with that screen.

Like I said, we could talk for a very long time but we’re already running longer than I usually do. So I got to wind this down, Neil, this has been great. 

Neil Chatwood: Thanks, Dave. Omnivex has been around for a long time. I’ve been around a long time. You’ve been around a long time. I’m surprised we’ve not get to this earlier but thanks so much. I really respect Sixteen Nine and what you’ve done for the industry. And I encourage you to keep at it. We need a rational voice in this craziness. 

All right. Well, thanks. Thanks again. 

Neil Chatwood: All right. Thanks a lot, Dave. Take care.